3DR preparing a trailer?

[Asmodeusz]

http://www.kolbyjukes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1289

Notice the "movie quality" part. It smells like a trailer to me.
It also could be intro/cutscene/outro work but who knows.

What you guys think?

[Joe3DR]

Don't think so hard. You will usually end up disappointed.

[Kalki]

Don't think so hard. You will usually end up disappointed.
"You're not supposed to be here! -- trailerlord"

:nipple: :p :nipple:

Well I don't expect a trailer but that description sure is great. Movie-quality means they're retaining the photo-realism of the past media and considering the technical leaps of upcoming games, it should look really good. :love: (<-- erm, is that Natalie? :cool:)

[Asmodeusz]

Don't think so hard. You will usually end up disappointed.

Still a trailer takes a heck of time to do, and I'm aware of that. :) With the lack of info, I guess I can't be dissapointed at any time with any info!

And you have to admit, a trailer would be sweet!! huh? ;)

"You're not supposed to be here! -- trailerlord"


:D lol

And, yeah that's -> :love: Natalia :)

Well I don't expect a trailer but that description sure is great. Movie-quality means they're retaining the photo-realism of the past media and considering the technical leaps of upcoming games, it should look really good.

Well, I may have gone too far with a trailer... but why did they use movie realistic, instead of "photo-realistic"...?

[Kalki]

Well "cinematic realism" has been a buzz word for this past generation and the upcoming generation of games. I've heard it used in 2001 when Doom 3 was unveiled. Photo-realism was used for realistic texturing but without the smooth polycounts to go with it.

Movie realism brings together both I guess along with advanced animation and detailing. Basically the end-product you'd expect to see in a movie or game CG cut-scene.

I often said that Doom 3 totally nailed the science-vessel cinematic from StarCraft ("I got yer zerg right here").

[Charlie Wiederhold]

I disappear for a while to get my career sorted out and you guys are already off spreading the speculation outside the domain of 3DR. ;)

All games intending to come out next-gen are likely to be looking for "movie quality" content. That doesn't indicate anything about actual art style... only that the content is starting to look like what you would expect in a movie. For things like fur we're not there yet in the realtime world... but you can make a dinosaur for a game that looks pretty much as good as what was in Jurassic Park.

Essentially, if pressed, you could take the game asset and put it into a movie and the audience won't mind. Also the high-poly stuff being built to generate normal maps are now on the same level as what is built for actual in-movie content. I went to a thing showing the characters being developed for Pirates 2 and it wasn't far off what I see being made for games all over the industry. The difference is the gaming industry then creates a lower poly and uses the high poly for normal maps vs just rendering out the entire high poly like movies do. The distinction between modelling for games vs modelling for movies is getting smaller.

[Charlie Wiederhold]

"You're not supposed to be here! -- trailerlord"

Haha... I should make a "Forum Rules" sticky that specifically states any and all speculation is not only ok, but entirely encouraged (even if misguided.... har).

Now it's just a "bunch of fans" hanging out talking... right????!?!?!?! :p

[Kalki]

Right! Joe, quit waving that NDA, you could take somebody's eye out! :p ;)

Thanks for the 'movie quality' post, Charlie. You explain it much better than I or any "fan" could with none of the ambiguity. :)

[kaisersoze]

Trailer? Bwahaha.

Maybe in a few more years.

[Asmodeusz]

Oh, you guys are mean. You ruined my trailer theory :(

Being serious for a change, wow, I'm getting old I guess. You're right, now that I think of it, "photo-realistic" may sound a bit outdated. When I play some old games, DN3D for instance, the cutscenes look like outdated in-game footage from recent games. On the other hand, cool thing DNF will be movie-realistic :D

Still, a trailer would kick-ass ! :)

[Kalki]

A trailer will come in time. Wait for the exclusive magazine cover story with screenshots first.

[yossa]

I think the great news here is that Isaac Tramell is working at 3DR. He is the guy responsible for some amazing assets and art style of Fallout and Fallout 2.

[Kristian Joensen]

Ahh, you know who this guy is ? Have yo got a link ?

[yossa]

Some samples from gamasutra:

http://www.gamasutra.com/galleries/visual_art/tramell_isaac/work1.htm (old stuff) I'm sure you'll be able to google up a lot more.

[Kristian Joensen]

Hmm that is actually very good. I DID try searching on Google but didn't really find much information. Basicaly just some info on some of the previous games he had worked on and not really that much about that even. This is all very unexpected.

He is VERY talented it seems but he also seems to have a lack of FPS experience, but maybe that is alo a good thing since that can bring a new perspective on things.

However this all has also made me worried that Ruben Cabrera left.

One sure that is that I most definetly prefer the photo-realistic look of the 2001 trailer to any other alternative look.

If they haven't kept that then in my world any claim of this version looking beter than that one becomes meaningless.

[Kalki]

Hang on, when did Ruben leave?? He was seen in that power outage / hacky sack pic with Alan Blum v3.0, wasn't he?

[Kristian Joensen]

Yes exactly this is what makes this even more wierd, maybe he didn't leave but just change position in the company, but then what would that be to ?

[Kalki]

Makes what so weird? So Tramell posts a few job openings, I shouldn't read too much into that should I?

Anyway, Tramell's seems like a modeller while Reuben's always been into texturing IIRC. Or are you talking about the art-design lead position?

[Charlie Wiederhold]

Ruben is very multi-talented. From what I understand he shifted over to being heavily involved in the level design aspect when Trammel came over to become the art director.

[Kristian Joensen]

Ok, that is cool, thanks for the clarification.

Kalki, his profile over at the "TWEAK" forums where he posted that says that he is Art Director maybe that was your missing bit of information ?

But it doesn't matter now that Charlie has clarified this

(To the best of his knowledge ofcourse).

[Kalki]

Wow, that's a nice shuffle there. Hope everything works out for the best. :)

And yeah KJ, I missed that bit.

[Charlie Wiederhold]

There are some people that tend to naturally cross over multiple roles in a video game company. I've always known at least one guy on a team that could fill multiple roles. I've even gone down that road at each place I've worked for. Ruben is that sort of guy on the creative side especially. He was a level designer as well as artist for his projects he worked on before coming to 3DR and has always had his finger on the level designer pulse.

[Asmodeusz]

It was always quite amazing for me that you had to know:
1. Programming
2. Level Design (+tools)
3. Managing skills
4. Scripting (which is different from programing in a way)

Anyhow, I guess a trailer could be possible, since George said something like
"it's time to change that" in regards to the vapourware award. So maybe they want to give us just a little tid-bit this year, just to prove Duke is still alive?

Trailer? Bwahaha.

Maybe in a few more years.

Kaiser, you need to stay a bit away from the 3DR forums. I see it's getting you as frustrated as I was. If you give it sometime, everything will go back to normal. After a break, now I go there with no "bad thoughts".

[Kalki]

Anyhow, I guess a trailer could be possible, since George said something like
"it's time to change that" in regards to the vapourware award.
I don't think a trailer is going to change vapourware status. It happened in 2001 and it'll keep happening. They need product.

Kaiser, you need to stay a bit away from the 3DR forums. I see it's getting you as frustrated as I was. If you give it sometime, everything will go back to normal. After a break, now I go there with no "bad thoughts".
I don't get how you guys can be negative after so long. I can always take restarts and employee turnover in my stride with a little detachment.

You just have to understand that this is how the game has always been made. And if it has to go limping past the finish line, that's how it's going to get there. I for one will applaud when it does. :) (So will you if you simply pretend you're watching the special olympics. :p ;) )

[kaisersoze]

Asmo and Kalki-I was thinking about that today. Is it really worth it to get upset over the game? Hell no.

All will be well with the game. I personally think it's probably still a few years away(2008 at a minimum) but when the game does ship, it'll be fun and that's the bottom line.

Really, why get upset or bummed out over something I have absolutely no control over?

All we really can do at this point is hope for the best and play the other stuff coming our way in the mean time. :)

[Asmodeusz]

I don't think a trailer is going to change vapourware status. It happened in 2001 and it'll keep happening. They need product.

I don't get how you guys can be negative after so long. I can always take restarts and employee turnover in my stride with a little detachment.

You just have to understand that this is how the game has always been made. And if it has to go limping past the finish line, that's how it's going to get there. I for one will applaud when it does. :) (So will you if you simply pretend you're watching the special olympics. :p ;) )

Well, a trailer with movie-like graphics, sick interactivity and a kick-ass song, could make the vapourware guys not make it number 1 :)

My frustration came after all this years, because it has been a while since the last restart. Every year I think, "Is it this year?". But I guess the greatest source of negativity came with the forums becoming more and more strict. More and more things about DNF are forbidden and so on. I understand this completely, from the 3DR point of view, but it got me mad somehow. Now I don't see it that way. I always believed in DNF, and no matter my "mood" I will apreciate this game a lot when it comes out. See, I said "when" not "if" ;)

Asmo and Kalki-I was thinking about that today. Is it really worth it to get upset over the game? Hell no.

All will be well with the game. I personally think it's probably still a few years away(2008 at a minimum) but when the game does ship, it'll be fun and that's the bottom line.

Really, why get upset or bummed out over something I have absolutely no control over?

All we really can do at this point is hope for the best and play the other stuff coming our way in the mean time.

That's the spirit :D
I think it could be a 2007 game though.
Normally an AAA title takes circa 3-3,5 years to complete:
the restart was mid 2003 + 3,5 = late 2007, early 2008 in the worst case, which judging by 3DR "deadlines" is more probable, than 3 years.

I need some beer. See ya :)

[Charlie Wiederhold]

Well, a trailer with movie-like graphics, sick interactivity and a kick-ass song, could make the vapourware guys not make it number 1 :)

Not likely. It would only have them saying "Despite a new trailer (we've seen that before!!!) the game is still MIA etc..."

Regardless, the Vaporware thing isn't that bad. It's a recognition of mind share. The worst situation would be to be this delayed and nobody caring enough to vote it to the top of the Vaporware list. :)

[Charlie Wiederhold]

...but when the game does ship, it'll be fun and that's the bottom line.

Really, why get upset or bummed out over something I have absolutely no control over?

All we really can do at this point is hope for the best and play the other stuff coming our way in the mean time. :)

Now you've finally reached the only way to survive being a DNF follower. ;) That's pretty much the attitude I was trying to convey people should hold back when I was still actively talking to people about it a few years ago.

[Kristian Joensen]

Asmodeusz, where did you get that mid 2003 date from ?, am just asking because am I curios, not disputing what you are saying

Here is some of the things George has said about the restart:

We've 100% rewritten the rendering engine. From scratch. All of it. - George Broussard, May 29th, 2003.

Yes, in hindsight, writing our own engine would have been the way to go, but that wasn't an option once we were so deep into things. We basically stepped back in early 2002, said "This just isn't going to work or be what we want" and spent most of 2002 re-writing things to get us where we needed to be, once and for all. Most of 2003 was spent on content creation and hring new people. Once we were able to make progress, content creation bottlenecks emerged that needed to be dealt with. So, it's been an interesting journey, but one I do not recommend be repeated, by anyone, ever Haha... - George Broussard, January 1st, 2004.

Yeah, but just the overall structure. Editor, scripting language, networking etc. We've completely gutted and written our own AI system, rendering, particles, skeletal animation and more so it won't look/feel like an Unreal game at all I don't think. - George Broussard, January 1st, 2004.


That's not it at all. We certainly have very high standards, but the bottom line is that we had some issues and made some big mistakes and that cost us a few years of wasted development. We started fresh in very late 02 (really early 03) and have been on a pretty good pace since then. We are making progress and driving towards something.

This reallly is a case of just screwing up in a cosmic way early on, then just deciding to try to do it right. - George Broussard, August 9th, 2005.

About 2.5 years since we threw everything out content wise and went forward with a new engine and plan.

Forget everything prior to 2003. It's lost gone, and doesn't even count. - George Broussrad, June 30th, 2005.

Very late 2002. The rendering was up and running and we knew it would all work.

As for why we didn't grab Doom 3 in 2001 with Prey? Maybe we should have, but we had tons of gameplay code that would have been a nightmare to port over. We maintained all that through our engine upgrade.

Also Doom 3 as an engine was still a long way from being done as a shippable engine in 2001. It was a while before things stabilized and were prety solid, as is always the case with engines in development.

Ahh....hindsight - George Broussard, May 28th, 2005.

Pretty much had a new renderer by Nov 2002. The content redirection coincided with the tech change and we went forward once we knew things were stable and going to work on the tech end. So accounting for end of year slow down and Xmas vacations, you can assume a pretty much fresh start from 2003 forward. - George Broussard, June 30th, 2005.

Also some things he said given us some info about the technological/graphical evolution of the game:

By moving to DX8 we gain access to new features we can take advantage of. We're not going to have time to do it all, but there is a possibility of things like bump mapping on characters, and some vertex shader effects. These are things that Glide prohibited, but are fairly simple in DX8. - George Broussard, March 12, 2001.

In all honesty you're going to want a GF3 level card or better (as good as you can afford). If you go lower, you will lose lots and lots of graphics quality - especially vertex/pixel shader effects. This loss will lessen the visual impact quite a bit. It will work on a GF2, but it's just not going to look as good.

We don't look anything like the 99 screenshots anymore and lave lots of pixel and vertex shaders in the game. - George Broussard, August(That is before November), 2002.

DNF is a dx9 only game[...] It'll run on non dx9 cards, but you may lose or have degraded visuals as we're definitely using dx9 features. We're not going to cut out a card like a GF3, but we aren't going to be constrained by it either and not support the high end[...] You just won't get as many features, and some things may not look as nice. They will still look nice comapred to other GF3 level games. But better if you have a 9800 or something[...] - George Broussard, May 29th, 2003.

We'll leave that as a secret for now. Suffice to say we think we are more than competitive. - George Broussard, September 21st, 2003.

Done, mostly optimized, ready for prime time. There isn't a single engine feature holding up production. We could ship now if we had all the content done.

It's a full DX9 engine - George Broussard, January 14nd, 2004.

DNF will ship with competitive visuals for it's time - George Broussard, January 7nd, 2004.

Yes.

If you already support 2.0 then 3.0 is easy to support. It's nice that 3.0 is here to develop on, but most developers aren't even using 2.0 at the moment, so the 3.0 stuff is likely here too early.

DNF has a full HLSL pipe and we can pretty much support any rendering mode or feature that cards can do(3.0 beeing SM3.0 shaders which require a GF 6 series, Radeon X1XX series or better card) - George Broussard, May 11th, 2004.

We have nothing to do with Unreal, 2k3/4 rendering and we've 100% written our own rendering, lighting and visibility for DNF. Apples and Oranges.

We will be visually competitive. - George Broussard, May 14th, 2004.

Unreal Engine III looks like Doom 3 with higher res textures and features like HDR rendering. But the main thing that's impressing people is simple the poly counts on models and the resolution of the textures. That's what I'd expect, shipping after Doom 3.(When asked "Is there a chance the game may look like the Unreal III Technology engine.?") - George Broussard, August 15nd, 2004.

Yes(When asked: "George whilst we are on the subject of Pixel Shaders. Are you taking advantage for HDR rendering at all in PS2-3.0?") - George Broussard, October 8th, 2004.

I don't think the game is going to run on a GF3 - George Broussard, September 28th, 2004.

Don't under estimate our tech or visuals. We shot pretty high on all counts. - George Broussard, December 20th, 2004.

No. Its a fantastic looking engine, but we want to finish on what we have.(When asked: "Will you switch to Unreal 3 engine for DNF?") - Geortge Broussard, May 26th, 2005.

Yes. (When asked: "Will you use Normal Mapping?") - George Broussard, May 26th, 2005.

Yes(When asked: "Will it the lighting system be as good as Doom 3's?") - George Broussard, May 26th, 2005.

Don't worry. When I say tech complete, I mean we could ship if all the content were done. It's fairly easy to add and update shaders and we do so all the time. The graphics guys area ahead and always have time to add in bells and whistles. Many things like per pixel blur, depth of field etc, have zero impact on game content and drop in, in a few days. - George Broussard, March 30th, 2006.

Yeah, those things are in and have been for a while. - George Broussard, March 30th, 2006.

[Asmodeusz]

KJ,

I was relying on my memory, but:

That's not it at all. We certainly have very high standards, but the bottom line is that we had some issues and made some big mistakes and that cost us a few years of wasted development. We started fresh in very late 02 (really early 03) and have been on a pretty good pace since then. We are making progress and driving towards something.

This reallly is a case of just screwing up in a cosmic way early on, then just deciding to try to do it right.

This is the quote I was having in mind meaning mid 2003, obviously I was wrong, it was early 2003. :)

Wow. A real "grabbag" of quotes :D
So, now that we're talking specifics, could it be mid 2007?
Again, I guess (my memory may fail me again) GB said starting the hype six months before would be more than enough... like a Christmas present? I know it's the same every year, but I see it this way: Bethesda (counting around 30 employees) created Oblivion (including the engine etc) in the time period between mid 2002 - march 2006.

So, mid 2007 could be a reasonable estimate.

So we could be close...

PS/EDIT: Which means we could get a Christmas trailer, 3 months to do it would be enoug :D

[Kristian Joensen]

Well that was not what I was insinuating but you are free to speculate.

Did you notice the pattern with the GF3 ? What do you make out the the tech quotes and the changes they show ?

Edit:

As for the restart I think these two quotes show things in the clearest light:

Yes, in hindsight, writing our own engine would have been the way to go, but that wasn't an option once we were so deep into things. We basically stepped back in early 2002, said "This just isn't going to work or be what we want" and spent most of 2002 re-writing things to get us where we needed to be, once and for all. Most of 2003 was spent on content creation and hring new people. Once we were able to make progress, content creation bottlenecks emerged that needed to be dealt with. So, it's been an interesting journey, but one I do not recommend be repeated, by anyone, ever Haha...

Pretty much had a new renderer by Nov 2002. The content redirection coincided with the tech change and we went forward once we knew things were stable and going to work on the tech end. So accounting for end of year slow down and Xmas vacations, you can assume a pretty much fresh start from 2003 forward.

[Asmodeusz]

Yeah, a lot of GF3 for that many years. I guess they could be using a GF3 for benchmarking needs, and in the last GF3 quote, they realised they can't use it anymore and will have to consider a new one. :o :confused:

But as I see it, the tech quotes show, they are constantly trying to catch up with the newest trends. I don't knbow if it's a good thing though. Of course it also shows again how flexible the Epic engine is :)

[Kristian Joensen]

My point was just to show how they went from having the GF3 be a recommended card to the GF3 beeing a low-end card and from there unto the GF3 not beeing able to run the game at all.

The game also went on a route something like this with regards to shaders:

fixed function only with software support -> fixed function+shader support W/software support -> fixed function + shader support, hardware only, DX8 and lightmapping -> fixed function + shader support, hardware only, DX8+DX9(I think/suppose, atleast with regards to the supported hardware propably not the API supported), dynamic per pixel lighting and shadowing -> shader only(and heavy), hardware only, DX9 only(Like UE3 unlike D3E or Source), dynamic per pixel lighting and shadowing ->SM3.0 support, DX9 only, hardware only, dynamic per pixel lighting and shadowing, extensive shader usage for effects like motion blur and depth of field.

Edit:

The last three stages all being from the "current" restart/post-restart version.

[Kristian Joensen]

I hate to doublepost but I forgot to mention that HDR support goes with one of the three last stages we don't know when that was added.

For some reason Charlie has set the edit time limit to 5 minutes, that is a bit short if you ask me.

Hopefully he doesn't mind this post.

Edit:

Personally I wonder if they are gonna make HDR a requirement.

[Asmodeusz]

DX9 only(Like UE3 unlike D3E or Source)

From what I read on the net, that's a huge advantage of UEx engines.
Epic gives you a heckaton of updates and upgrades.

In this case, I suppose 3DR had to make it themselves though.
But this may mean the game won't look anything outdated, also judging by the high-res textures quote.

I hope they are far content-wise though. If they concentrate too much on tech, and tech changes every other day, they may be left far behind with content.

Hopefully they are mainly adding content, and just upgrading tech on a by-the-way basis...

[Kristian Joensen]

Well we can only speculate on those things, however we know that there are exactly 0 lines of UE3 code in DNF, since they after cutting off PRIOR to Unreal 2, re-wrote 90% of the engine including the rendering, animation, visibility, lighting, AI and particle sub-systems.

[Charlie Wiederhold]

Someday you'll hopefully get the answers to all those questions of the technology.

Regarding Ruben: I didn't want to say anything until it was "official"... but I'm excited to continue working with him, especially considering how highly I consider his abilities to be and how insanely creative he is.

http://www.gearboxsoftware.com/index.php?p=talent&bio=rcabrera

You can imagine how confused I was when you guys were talking about him leaving... since I didn't think it was public at that time.

[Kristian Joensen]

Now I am wondering if anybody is left at 3D Realms. Who is next Allen Blum ?

I am starting to loose all faith in DNF and 3D Realms. All these developers are probably leaving for some actual reason.

[Charlie Wiederhold]

Allen is awesome and I feel lucky to have worked so closely with him for so long. However I would be very surprised if he went anywhere else.

Joe S. is correct that there is plenty of stuff going on with the staff situation that isn't public info... primarily incoming. If I could talk about Ruben only in the context of Gearbox with no relation to 3DR I would... but kinda goes hand in hand. From what I hear, George is more confident than ever in his team.

[Kristian Joensen]

Plenty of positive stuff or pleny of negative stuff or pleny of both ?

Was their ANYTHING postive at ALL related to the mass departures ?

I don't see how that is even possible. I am just asking out of curiosity. Not to squeeze any information out of you or anything, I fully understand that given your situation that is totaly impossible.

"From what I hear, George is more confident than ever in his team."

Rightfully so ?

[Charlie Wiederhold]

Plenty of incoming experienced developers.

I couldn't possibly begin to answer the rest of your questions though. Some just to remain confidential and others because I'm not close enough to know them well enough to answer.

[Kristian Joensen]

"Plenty of incoming experienced developers."

I find that pretty damn strange considering two things:

1. George(or Scott) previously mentioned it beeing hard to hire developers in Dallas.
2. The shacknews story I find it strange that a developer would WANT to work for 3DR after that.

I mean if I was a developer the first thing that would come to my mind after seeing that article would probably be something along the lines of "Something is obviously wrong with 3DR, it is probably a very bad place to work for, otherwise this wouldn't happen".

Not "Wohoo finaly there are job openings at 3DR so I can get to work there".

[Charlie Wiederhold]

Yup... it is hard to hire experienced people in Dallas. Not impossible, just hard. When the need for those people gets intense enough options that you wouldn't consider before become worthwhile to consider.

Gearbox is dealing with the same issue... though Gearbox is 3x bigger than 3DR so the challenge is even larger here.

As for the shacknews story... maybe the guys consider it a worthwhile challenge to come in and make a difference. *shrug*

[Kalki]

If a tree falls down in a forest and you'd never even been shown a screenshot of it, does it make a noise? Um.. should it?

KJ, top of the list of the negatives, you have the much-feared Restart we've discussed, which for a lot of ppl would be a worst case scenario and imo, should always be considered a suspect. Me, I'm ok with restarts, if this is what it is and which I believe has been officially denied. But a restart(or upgrade) is not as bad as it's made out to be. HL2 kind of refreshed itself after the E3 leak which meant a major delay to its release schedule. I'd rather not speculate further or argue the possibilities for DNF but it's what armchair experience and watching this game a whole lot has led me to suspect from the moment news first broke about this whole "episode". Time will tell.

I just hope George always has enough people to manage things, that's all. The game can only get better, right? :)

[yossa]

Quite a handful of old guys there at Gearbox with you Charlie...

We'll see how's this going to unfold.

[Charlie Wiederhold]

yossa: Almost exactly 40 total man years on DNF between the 5 of us. :)

I'm excited about the possibilities for us though, yeah.

[GiSadmin]

For some reason Charlie has set the edit time limit to 5 minutes, that is a bit short if you ask me.

Hopefully he doesn't mind this post.

I've changed it to 30 minutes for editing and 5 minutes before it says "edited by". Hope that helps.

[Kristian Joensen]

That will be fine.

[Kalki]

yossa: Almost exactly 40 total man years on DNF between the 5 of us. :)

40 years. Just when you think they can't possibly exaggerate the time-frame of DNF's development any more than it already is... <j/k>

You could also multiply the number by 7 for crunches and overtime - or when you basically worked like a dog. ;)

[Asmodeusz]

About the ppl leaving, I don't really think it was a restart. Charlie mentioned he was planning to leave for some time, and despite the "mass flee" I don't think it was a reaction "to something" like a restart, but rather a growing mass frustration syndrome, talked over during coffee and cigarette breaks. And a joint decision by some folks to leave finally. Who knows, maybe George gives his employees the same "when it's done" bullshit, that may frustrate fans, but imagine how it influences employees. This is quite probable, judging by the often mentioned "lack of milestones and time constraints".

It's not like every employee that left kept his thoughts to himself, so a group critical mass at some point is understandable.

Now we may take bets what will be first. DNF or Gearbox unnanounced project?

[crunchysuperman]

Wow, Ruben is gone too! Oh well, best of luck to you guys at Gearbox now.

I suppose no matter how much one might love the team & project he's working on, there has to come a point where "when it's done" weighs just as heavily on a development team member as it does the fans. Spending years of work on something that is eventually thrown out over and over again would frustrate me to the point of going elsewhere as well.

[Kalki]

About the ppl leaving, I don't really think it was a restart. Charlie mentioned he was planning to leave for some time, and despite the "mass flee" I don't think it was a reaction "to something" like a restart, but rather a growing mass frustration syndrome, talked over during coffee and cigarette breaks. And a joint decision by some folks to leave finally. Who knows, maybe George gives his employees the same "when it's done" bullshit, that may frustrate fans, but imagine how it influences employees. This is quite probable, judging by the often mentioned "lack of milestones and time constraints".
I think a "growing mass frustration" is unlikely because something had to set it off beyond "when it's done". If they were making constant, steady progress, then they'd all stay just to see their names on the credits, not to mention the royalties. A restart would have been the most ideal situation to reevaluate their individual positions. I'm sure it wasn't a group decision because to 3DR, that wouldn't be nice or what you and me might call "leaving amicably". It's possible they each may have even stayed back long enough to wrap up whatever tasks remained to them.

Now we may take bets what will be first. DNF or Gearbox unnanounced project?
You mean now that George has finally gotten rid of Charlie, Ruben, et al and saddled Gearbox with them... ;) :p :nipple: :D

[Charlie Wiederhold]

And a joint decision by some folks to leave finally.

No. Our reasons were certainly similar (though each person has their own reasons as well too that are different from others), but there wasn't anything like "The Ion Eight" or the Ritual guys where a group sat around and said "It's time to go and we're gonna go together".

This is quite probable, judging by the often mentioned "lack of milestones and time constraints".

WID has good and bad with it. The farther you get from the starting point though, yes, the WID perspective becomes more and more difficult to go along with.

We're estatic to have a well defined project schedule for our stuff here at Gearbox.

It's not like every employee that left kept his thoughts to himself, so a group critical mass at some point is understandable.

Now we may take bets what will be first. DNF or Gearbox unnanounced project?

:D

Wow, Ruben is gone too! Oh well, best of luck to you guys at Gearbox now.

Thanks! We're having a great time and feel totally refreshed and highly motivated.

It's possible they each may have even stayed back long enough to wrap up whatever tasks remained to them.

Nobody was "finished" with their work. I wish that were the case, but it just isn't possible. That should be evident now by Scott's comment in his Podcast today where he said they'd start 10-12 months out on showing the game before release. People don't finish their work a year or more out from release. :) Or a better way to put it is I don't think 3DR would have been wondering what to do with those people if they had chosen to stay.


You mean now that George has finally gotten rid of Charlie, Ruben, et al and saddled Gearbox with them... ;) :p :nipple: :D

You never know... perhaps there is some truth to that from certain perspectives. :D Scott did say they were replacing their inexperienced developers who were slowing things down with new developers with tons of experience.

I'm happy to hear the new guys are blown away by our work though (and by "our" I of course mean everyone that is still there as well as the guys who have moved on recently).

[Micki!]

Wow, did i really miss all of this..?! :(

[Kristian Joensen]

"Nobody was "finished" with their work."

Obviously, I especially agree with your comment that 3DR wouldn't wonder about what to do with these guys. That is really never the case.

But I think "finished" can mean alot of things though, I am thinking that what most people that are saying that are trying to say, is that at this point it isn't really the tech holding things back.

Actually I don't think people are really referring to anything more than that, so I don't think they are actually even considering, art guys like Brian Cozzens at all when they make such comments.

But ofcourse even the *ENGINE* programmers would have plenty to do, otherwise 3DR wouldn't really be replacing them. But they will and/or have. Because they must.

Like Joe said nothing is finished until everything is finished.

But enough with my ramblings, Charlie, I wish, you, Keith, Ruben, Brian and Kyle all the best luck in the world at Gearbox :) :D ;)

You guys deserve it.

Edit:

The above wasn't really in relation to Kali's post but to what people are saying in general.

[Micki!]

But enough with my ramblings, Charlie, I wish, you, Keith, Ruben, Brian and Kyle all the best luck in the world at Gearbox :) :D ;)

You guys deserve it.

With this, i'd like to say Congratulations too to all of you (again :nipple:)... :) :cool:

[Kalki]

Nobody was "finished" with their work. I wish that were the case, but it just isn't possible. That should be evident now by Scott's comment in his Podcast today where he said they'd start 10-12 months out on showing the game before release. People don't finish their work a year or more out from release. :) Or a better way to put it is I don't think 3DR would have been wondering what to do with those people if they had chosen to stay.
Ah, good point. I wonder why developers exiting in the past have used that expression. Maybe they meant getting their work to a point where another (possibly new) developer could easily pick up the threads if they chose to.

You never know... perhaps there is some truth to that from certain perspectives. :D Scott did say they were replacing their inexperienced developers who were slowing things down with new developers with tons of experience.
No it was a joke, plain and simple. :D Scott described you as the best employee they'd ever lost. :) I'm sure he had similarly good opinions of the other guys because they worked there for so long. Like you said, 3D Realms wouldn't be wondering what to do with them if they'd chosen to stay. :cool:

Thanks! We're having a great time and feel totally refreshed and highly motivated.
Good to hear. I'm sure you guys will rock the place. Like the fellas said, congratulations once more and the very best of luck and to you, Kyle, Keith, Brian and Ruben! http://www.gamingisstupid.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Micki!]

I actually hope to somehow recognize/feel the difference that Kyle, Charlie, Ruben, Keith and Brian make in Gearbox's next game...

And see if you can't sneak a Dopefish in there somehow :D

[Asmodeusz]

I suppose no matter how much one might love the team & project he's working on, there has to come a point where "when it's done" weighs just as heavily on a development team member as it does the fans. Spending years of work on something that is eventually thrown out over and over again would frustrate me to the point of going elsewhere as well.

That's exactly how I see it :)

I think a "growing mass frustration" is unlikely because something had to set it off beyond "when it's done". If they were making constant, steady progress, then they'd all stay just to see their names on the credits, not to mention the royalties. A restart would have been the most ideal situation to reevaluate their individual positions. I'm sure it wasn't a group decision because to 3DR, that wouldn't be nice or what you and me might call "leaving amicably". It's possible they each may have even stayed back long enough to wrap up whatever tasks remained to them.

I'm not sure if Charlie denied the restart or not. Now that I think of it, it actually could be possible, We should ask Kaiser to ask this question on the 3DR forums... he might get a "yes or no" answer.

You mean now that George has finally gotten rid of Charlie, Ruben, et al and saddled Gearbox with them...

:D

No. Our reasons were certainly similar (though each person has their own reasons as well too that are different from others), but there wasn't anything like "The Ion Eight" or the Ritual guys where a group sat around and said "It's time to go and we're gonna go together".

Well, I didn't mean some kind of "Ion Eight" as yous said or a "common leaving decision", but rather the fact you guys were aware of how each of you felt.

Wow, did i really miss all of this..?!

Dude, too bad you missed the AvP pr0n thread before GISAdmin deleted it (Obviously to keep all the valuable thread content to himself)

Like Joe said nothing is finished until everything is finished.

I strongly disagree with Joe. If you see some kind of product that way, it means you have no control over it. Let's take a car as an example:
So, we have the the shell and the engine done, but the engine is not inside the car. The car may not be finished, but the components are ready. You can not say NOTHING is finished. You will say that if everyone else have no idea if the engine guys are done, and when the engine guys have no idea of the rest. They just predict joining the pieces at some point. Which is a mess.

Ok, that's some car spaghetti above. If you have the game engine running, obviously you may modify it further (if you need) while putting in content. But still, the engine is DONE and it can only be adapted better to the content. If you don't look at this as a "adaptation" of the finished engine (stating the engine is not done), then it means you don't have a vision of how the engine should look like. And that means messy planning.

I hope that's understandable in at least 10% :P ;)

You never know... perhaps there is some truth to that from certain perspectives. Scott did say they were replacing their inexperienced developers who were slowing things down with new developers with tons of experience.


So, to speed things up, they hired the much experienced John Romero? :D :D :D

[Charlie Wiederhold]

But I think "finished" can mean alot of things though, I am thinking that what most people that are saying that are trying to say, is that at this point it isn't really the tech holding things back.

Something odd I noticed the other day... multiple people have come to my page by searching for "Blonde guys in hats".

I only tell you that cause I really don't have anything productive to say to what you wrote. :)

Like Joe said nothing is finished until everything is finished.

I actually don't agree with that... for the same reasons Asmo wrote.

That's something I take a lot of pride in... being able to conceptualize a project (big or small) from the big picture to the small details and focus on "finishing" it piece by piece and pulling those pieces together to form a cohesive whole that is eventually finished. Part of my focus is always on making sure that I'm finishing the pieces of the puzzle before putting the puzzle together. I've seen many cases in this industry where people weren't focused on the pieces to their puzzle, they were only focused on the final result of their puzzle, while just assuming all the pieces would be there and fall into place, and thus couldn't ever get anywhere for long.

I get what Joe and you mean though... and yes... in reality nothing is done until it's out there and you can't touch it anymore. However that's a dangerous mindset to have even if it's true. Even if you have the ability to go back and revamp something if you wanted... you shouldn't think of it that way.

But enough with my ramblings, Charlie, I wish, you, Keith, Ruben, Brian and Kyle all the best luck in the world at Gearbox :) :D ;)

We aim to make ya proud. :)

Tim Wilson has also interviewed at Gearbox, btw. I don't know if he is going to accept but I sure hope he does. He might also be enjoying his freelance artistic projects too much to be burdened with our silly schedules and milestones.

Ah, good point. I wonder why developers exiting in the past have used that expression. Maybe they meant getting their work to a point where another (possibly new) developer could easily pick up the threads if they chose to.

I'm not really sure of any developer saying that other than maybe Andy Hanson.

No it was a joke, plain and simple. :D Scott described you as the best employee they'd ever lost. :) I'm sure he had similarly good opinions of the other guys because they worked there for so long. Like you said, 3D Realms wouldn't be wondering what to do with them if they'd chosen to stay. :cool:

Scott doesn't necessarily represent all of 3DR. ;)

I actually hope to somehow recognize/feel the difference that Kyle, Charlie, Ruben, Keith and Brian make in Gearbox's next game...

And see if you can't sneak a Dopefish in there somehow :D

We've got lots to learn from them, and I think we bring a lot to the table as well. Such as teaching the proper placement of a Dopefish in a secret area.

I'm not sure if Charlie denied the restart or not. Now that I think of it, it actually could be possible, We should ask Kaiser to ask this question on the 3DR forums... he might get a "yes or no" answer.

Somehow I doubt that question would get very far. :)

Well, I didn't mean some kind of "Ion Eight" as yous said or a "common leaving decision", but rather the fact you guys were aware of how each of you felt.

Ahh... in that case then for the most part yes. Though I don't know if anyone knew how seriously I was considering leaving until perhaps right before it happened. When asked I was pretty consistent in my conviction and desire to stick around until it was done. Especially since there was still a chance I would have stayed... but it didn't work out that way and I think Scott Miller is right that everyone is going to come out ahead.

Dude, too bad you missed the AvP pr0n thread before GISAdmin deleted it (Obviously to keep all the valuable thread content to himself)

That guy spoils all the fun.

[GiSadmin]

That guy spoils all the fun.

You're banned.

[Micki!]

They oughta put the Dopefish in, in a good fashion... :cool:

You're banned.
Hahaha:D